Why is it important to create you own strict stardards for grading TPG coins.

[bear]

The major TPG generally grade on a technical basis. Even so, they could be off by one point or in some
cases even more. Now, if we include the overall appearance of a coin, while even if it is technically graded
may be so ugly you wouldn't want to be seen in public with the coin. Thus, to buy such a coin at its technical
price or even a bit below that price, when you go to sell you will only receive a fraction of you cost. I have found that only perhaps 30% of the series of coins I collect are both of the technical grade as well as the
overall appearance to meet my standards.


While TPGs state that their grading is consistent, common consensus among collectors tends to differ. As
graders change, the grading tends to change. As the cost of buying back over graded coins increases, grading
with tighten to reduce that problem. As toned coins developed doctoring problems, grading also tightened
for toned coins as well it should. We have seen the qualifications for DMPL coins tighten as the depth of the
mirror went from 6" depth to 8" depth  which is where it was back in the 1970s when  B & W DMPL Morgans,
could be found with mirror depths of 15 inches or more.

While I thought that CAC grading the graders was a rather silly proposition, I have slowly begun to change my
mind on this issue. It is my observation, that coins Approved by CAC tend to have a better appearance and
technical accuracy then non CAC coins. To be sure, I find CAC coins that still do not make my own standard
however they seem to represent a higher overal appearance. I have found this particularly true in the series
that I collect which are the L.S.Quarter and the C.B Halves.

Particularly in the quarters, So many of them in Gem Grade with FH designation have at best the minimal mushy head with very flat leaves, soft definition between the hair line and the head as well as a muted
separation between the cheek and the jaw. The ear hole is a somewhat vague impression of a hole or a slash.
What I find particularly disturbing is the compression flat spots on the torso and neck of many MS-65,66 FH
graded specimens. True gems should have pristine luster , be free of flat spots and have a sharp FH. If you
review the recent and current Heritage sale, look at the SL. Quarters and you will see 65s, 66, and 67s with
numerous flat spots under magnification.Now this may be due to the fact that dealers are attempting to sell the dregs of their stale inventory. The last thing you should want to do is get stuck with one of them at top
dollar.

Thus if one is going to spend hard earned money on coins, be selective and careful that you get all the coin y
you are paying for. When it is time to sell, you will be pleasantly rewarded. Remember, set your own strict
standards and do net ever settle for anything less. Such coins are out there, you just have to find them. By the
way, the 10 coins in my "A" box happen to be CAC Approved. I don,t require that to be the case when I
purchase a coin, it just worked out that way.

[bear]

I think that this is a wonderful thread if I do say so myself.

[coinsarefun]

I think that this is a wonderful thread if I do say so myself.

After just seeing it now.......................I second that motion

[FilthyBroke]

I agree that the TPG grade shouldn't be the final word.  There is still much that isn't taken into consideration in addition to a technical grade, even when properly asessed.  And I think that CAC has it's place too, but if we as collectors learn our stuff then there should be little need for their services.

Let me tell you my concern.  As an example, I have a coin for sale (graded ms61) for a bit more than a 61 should sell for.  It was determined over at CU to be around a 64-65 grade from the pics, and I agree.  The price difference would be at least 4 times greater, but as it sits in the TPG holder marked 61 it isn't selling at my price.  I think that far too many people put the TPG grade as the final word.  They can and do make mistakes, just like the rest of us. 

To the collector, educate yourself.  I sure am trying to.  I've only collected for about three years, but would like to think that I'm making progress.  It's a diverse hobby, and there is a lot for us to take in.  I doubt that any one person 'knows it all', but each of us has something to add.  The TPGs aren't always on the mark, so we should all learn grading for our own benefit. 

[walmann]

"The major TPG generally grade on a technical basis."

This is the only comment that I would dispute, your observations otherwise are right on.

There are far too many coins in that are in the two major TPG's holders that do not meet the technical criteria of the assigned grades. The criteria they tend to be deficient on varies by series and perhaps more so moderns (particularly new issues that are graded in bulk) versus classic.

Many of the moderns receive lofty grades of 69 and 70 when they clearly do not meet the criteria due to hit marks alone.

Classics often tend to overlook their strike quality (die state) and the older the coin the greater chance that issues resulting from pass cleanings will be "forgiven". Now that is understandable to a certain extend due to prevalent collector's practices of the past, but the issue is often completely ignored on many older coins and is not reflected in the grade in any manner.

When it comes to selecting coins for ones own collection the weight given by the collector to the TPGer's assessment is often influenced not only by the collector's own experience and grading abilities, but also the collector's self confidence. Experience and ability need confidence to be fully utilized.

[bear]

There are a number of reasons for the variance in grading that seems to happen. Some TPGs have a tendency
on large prestigious collections to push the grade , expensive coins may be graded tighter or looser, depending
on business considerations.There is a consensus among collectors that even the best of TPG may grade a coin
one point higher or lower for a two point range. In a number of instances the range can even be greater. It is
true that PCGS tends to grade more from a technical aspect while NGC seems to give more weight to the overall
appearance in addition to technical aspects.

As for collectors buying the plastic, it is wrong and it is foolish, however human beings do many things that a
are wrong and foolish. An unusual thing is that people may not buy a MS-61, they will be more willing to buy a MS-64. One of the reasons may be that MS-60 and MS-62 tend to be , as a rule, really fugly coins.  same
thing happens with buyers of precious metals, like gold and silver, will buy when the metals are at a top and
sell when the metals are dropping. Just the reverse of what reason would seem to dictate.