Where is this Nation and its government heading

[bear]

Many of us heard the State of The Nation Speech by President Obama.
It was a lovely speech, well delivered by an intelligent, articulate and very
Presidential looking individual. However, It seemed to me to say too little and
the statement that the State of the Nation is Strong, is not being truthful with
the American people.

I am a retired American, while my inclinations in general are liberal, I am fiscally
conservative . I believe that the American People seem to understand that we
 have been taken for a hell of a ride when it came to the bail out of the Banks
as well as other financial institutions such as AIG. While I agree that the crises
was real and dangerous, we were stampeded , along with Congress to pour
 unlimited 100 cents on the dollar safety nets to the scoundrels that caused the
crises without any thought to the need for appropriate regulations as a trade off.
The President also appeared to be overwhelmed by BS and quietly went along for
 the ride. While we bought some time, we have not solved the problems in any
measure.

In the state of the Nation, the President should have told the people what we are facing.
We are actually in a state of War with intrenched vested interests, Federal statistics are
being manipulated to cover the true extent of the problems and have been for decades.
He did not tell the truth when he said that no lobbyists have been appointed to policy making
positions. At least 7 former lobbyists have been granted special dispensation to be appointed.
While this may have been necessary and appropriate, it should not have been covered over.

It is obvious that the Republican members of Congress smell weakness in the President and the
Democratic membership and they will continue to oppose all legislation even if they fundamentally
agree with it. They seem to have forgotten that they were elected by the people to serve the Nation
and not merely their own political reelection concerns as well as the welfare of big business. This is
apparently not the Republican Party of yesterday that would quietly work behind the scenes to draft
Legislation for the good of the Nation and its people. The Democrats on the other hand, appear divided,
confused,as well as weak. They have the largest majorities in both houses in recent memory and yet have
been impotent in achieving anything meaningful in the past year. This means that Obama being reelected for
a second term is at best 50/50. The Nation remains divided, small town America against Big City America.
Neither Party is being honest with us and neither party seems capable of doing what is right and necessary.

It is necessary to deal with a number of serious issues that if dealt with, will mean the defeat of the Party
in power. Social Security and Medicare must be cut back and brought into line with reality before it is too
late. The military must be brought back from large scale interventions within the next year. Our Army has
been used and battered by repeated tours of duty to the detriment of the men and women in the Army in
particular. The financial institutions must be re regulated. The tax rate for the wealthiest Americans must be
increased to the level they were at under President Reagan. Off shore tax evasion schemes must be prosecuted and the schemes ended. American heavy industry must be revitalized, modernized, made cost
effective and rebuilt. For once, an American President and the Congress must look out for the welfare of
Americas working Citizens and start looking more critically at what the world trade agreements have cost us.
Must we wait until we are brought down to the level of third world countries before something is done.


The destruction of the American auto industry was caused by the very lobbyists that worked so successfully
for the auto industry. They fought seat belts and airbags until the Japaneses auto makers saw the need and
built them in their cars. The American automakers fought increased gas mileage with loopholes while the
foreign car makers constantly improves the mileage of their automobiles. If the American Government and
Presidents of both Parties demanded excellence in quality, mileage, as well as safety features, then we would
still have a viable and growing American car industry.


The National debt, in addition to unfunded liabilities is approaching the tipping point at which it can no longer
be sustained. In fact , the economic wall of problems is so great, if the Government of the Country is
unwilling or unable to deal with it, then eventually some form of Martial Law and a suspension of the normal
functioning of the Nation may have to be employed to deal with these problems. Democracy is viable only as
long as the people are able to defend it and insure that it continues to work on behalf of the people and the
nation and not only the vested corporate interests. If one reads the declaration of Independence, it applies
to our ineffective  Government ,as well as it did the British Monarchy over 230 years ago.

In 2012, I see a Democratic Congress and a Republican President, that is if we as a Nation can survive that long. I guess when it comes to one party rule, the motto of the Nation should be "Divided we rule, while
united we fail".

[coinsarefun]

Wow, you said a mouthful bear


Were shall I begin?


It seemed to me to say too little and
the statement that the State of the Nation is Strong, is not being truthful with
the American people.


If he replies in a way that states that we are in a bad situation.....he is damned.
If he replies in a way that we are doing much , much better and everything is rosy,,,,,he is damned
This President has a very tough ride and has so many problems to fix and not enough days, weeks or years to fix it. Remember, we did not just wake up one day and see all these problems.
It took many years to get this bad and it will take even longer to get out and try to put into place
actions to try and prevent what happened for the future.


The President also appeared to be overwhelmed by BS and quietly went along for
 the ride. While we bought some time, we have not solved the problems in any
measure.



I disagree with the President being overwhelmed. I think he has to walk softly and carry a big stick.
If he acts boldly most will be against him and will say he is out to prove something. In which will
defeat most of what he wants to achieve.



I wont quote and reply to the rest and call it as I see it.

American dem's and repub's have to step up to the plate.
Rid themselves of the way out of control ego's and stop saying
"what can this country do for ME"
and start saying
 "what can I do for my country"

And until this happens we will only see it get worse.

I also think that there is so much Republican propaganda out there
it makes it next to impossible for this Prez. to make any real steps forward
without the Dem's backing him up and they have no backbone because they want
to insure there own ASS(seat) in government.

I think as time progresses and America gets more comfortable with him as President
because I still don't think people are comfortable with him yet.
Why you ask...................because the only thing the Republican had to offer was a
"older gentleman and a soccer Mom" running against him.

Lets face it the Republican party has yet to produce someone capable and trustworthy
for a Presidential campaign. After Bush it will take quite sometime before we see another Republican
take the highest office in the land.



Now........everyone, this is only my personal feelings and  this website forum
Coins Are Fun does not take any responsibility for what I have said



Ok, guys lets here what you have to say!

[bear]

The purpose of this thread, is not to see who is right and who is wrong. Rather,it is to
explore ones intellect and insight, as well as ones views of the possible and the probable.
In reasoned debate, lies understanding and wisdom. Therefore let us reason together and
all become wise ,rather then dogmatic and rigid in our thought processes.

[coinsarefun]

I'm not implying who is right or who is wrong.
I only disagreed with a few statements and stated how I see it


Sorry if it came across the wrong way 

[bear]

Steph, your response was exactly the kind of response I was hoping to see.
Reality, is actually no more then the perception  of people. Except in this country
at the moment, there is a great division in reaching a consensus, that has
been the case for perhaps the past 40 years. People in this Nation have to begin
to listen with open minds to counter arguments and differing perceptions without
diminishing their own or others right to hold to differing attitudes.

[Scottishmoney]

At least in Ukraine we know our leaders are corrupt, and the guy that is probably going to be president in a few days is a convicted felon twice over.  But he pimps and panders to the corporate fools and his Russian puppet masters.

Maybe sometime Americans will wake up and discover their leaders are just as corrupt, but a little more subtle about it and more dishonest in that respect.

[walmann]

At least in Ukraine we know our leaders are corrupt, and the guy that is probably going to be president in a few days is a convicted felon twice over.  But he pimps and panders to the corporate fools and his Russian puppet masters.

Many people fear big business, and rightfully so when monopolies are formed. This boils down to a mistrust of individuals. The view is that money and monopoly corrupt and even if a business is not abusive in its monopoly, at some future point an individual or group of individuals will be in control of it , that will abuse the position of power (monopoly or control of great wealth).

It is somewhat mystifying then that people that recognize this factor will place blind faith in individuals when the organization's name has the word government slapped on it. The preceding belief should lead those holding such belief to be more distrustful of government than business, just due to the fact of the unique monopoly(ies)and near monopolies that government's either obtain or grab. And if government is the only game in town, then without a doubt those power abusing individuals will clearly end up in government.

There are  a few other factors which would lead one to  desire to limit the scope and power of government.

First governments due to the factor of brute  force or its threat are able to coerce compliance in a manner that business can not. Some would dispute this, but history clearly shows the most brutal atrocities are inflicted via the instrument of government. I can not think of anything even close to the scale of Nazi Germany's Holocaust or Soviet Russia's slaughter of millions, that a business has been able to inflict on population.

Governments can endure negative feed back much longer than the negative feeback the market places on business organizations. If a competitor does not exist one will be created by those seeing the opportunity. Government does not in truth have to worry about a competer. To bring a government down often force i resorted to, not the case when a company fails due to mismanagement or actions that are impacting negatively. Even in countries with multiparty systems (where the party system is viewed as a form of competition to keep each other honest) it in practice does not work, as the vast majority of government workers are not elected postions. Hence once a new control or power is handed over to the "permanent members" of government it is almost impossible to withdraw that power.

The founders of this country, with all the resulting imperfections both in themselves and the organization of the government, recognized this fact and saw that the government should have very strict and limited authority and powers. They did not belief the best form of government was one where the government was responsible for the daily welfare of the citizens, if so then a  monarchy would have sufficed. No they viewed government as a mechanism to permit individuals to devote the maximum time  to pursuing their lives free of the dictates of government. Government was perceived as an organization that reduced the amount of time the individual would have to devote to physically protecting themselves from threats both foreign and domestic.

They recognized that the individual is responsible for their own welfare not a king or government official.
They recognized when standing alone, the individual is hampered by the vast amount of time required to protect themself. They recognized the need for a cooperative protective organization to deal with those groups or individuals that  would seek to impose their will on others, whether by imposing it with the use of force or theft (in its many forms).

The individual and society can grow to its fullest potential when the individual is freed from having to devote the majority of their waking hours to physically having to protect their life and property.
The scope of today's government has long ago moved into areas well beyond this purpose.

The establishment of our government was a recognition that there are both individuals and groups that have the goal of both abusive power and the wish to take the the fruits of others labors and that the most effective way of combating those threats are via government that is given the sole purpose and authority to accomplish this task.

The founders also recognized the possibility that the same government so empowered in such as task may seek to extent itself beyond its authorized area of purpose and use. This is a recognition of two facts, one that organizations are similar to living organisms , they are born, seek to grow , growth  eventually stops and they become unable to perform their function. Second that the government is made of individuals and as a government grows and increases it power, then those same individuals which the system was set up to protect against are actually attracted to  said government with its much more powerful monoply and authority.

Many people have either forgotten  or never learned this. Our country continues to regress into a totalitarian state or  government not unlike that of a monarchy, where the crown is responsible for the welfare of its citizens, not the citizens responsible for their own welfare.

 

[bear]

Walmann, a most interesting view and basically correct. There is a continuing battle between big Government
and the will of the people to retain the power to rule their lives. In post industrial America, we now have a
third major influence in the big business and their lobbyists. The people, unfortunately have been divided into
single issue voters, the uninformed, the highly opinionated who defy reason and honest debate,the independents
who vacillate between Parties but never seem to find the quality and effective leadership they seek so avidly.

The issues are many and great. How far do we allow the Government to control the avarice and illegal activity
of big business. How do we control the influence that big business has on Government thru contributions and
the revolving door of lobbyist to Government policy maker to lobbyist over and over. How do the people exert
control over the excessive spending of our money and yet protect the very programs that we desire to keep
and expand.

It has been said that "any Government big enough to give you what you want, can also take away what you
have". There is great truth in that, however, there must always be some sort of balance. between branches of
Government as well as business-Government and the people. We see that the Supreme Court of the Nation
has been politicized to the point where every 5/4 decision ,weakens the faith of half the Nation in justice.
Where are the impartial justices, where are the moderates on the court that will give the highest law in the
Land, overwhelming majorities on the issues of the day.

How does a citizen choose between Parties ,where corruption, ineptitude, dogma and extremism reign and
cause Government to grind to a halt. Where do we again find patriotism, nobility, integrity and reason in our
elected officials. We receive promises during campaigns but receive no effective results in legislation. Why do
our elected officials go into congress with modest means and retire with great wealth?

I wonder where this road to mediocrity and ineptitude leads? What must the people do to rectify this situation?
It would appear that we are at a major cross road and the decisions made will have the most profound and
lasting effects upon the welfare of the people and the stability of our Nation.

[walmann]

Big Government and Big Business are often siblings. In the true totalitarian state they all absorbed by the state. In the US this bedroom partnership was born long ago, the history of the rail system is a prime example of this.

But life can not only continue, but prosper, without both Big Government or Big Business. Neither are too big to fail. To prop up failing institutions mismanaged by incompetent individuals prevents those assets from being competently managed and greater benefits to all parties. This decreases the quality of life for all in the end.

Sadly the majority of the people pay little heed to the political beast, as they either do not confront it in a tangible form on a daily basis or else have been coopted by the beast and is being feed by it.

The number of independent voters is a reflection of the basic recognition that both parties exist for the benefit of those that obtain office and either increase or at the very least solidify the power base of government. This power grab of government is then justified by stating it is done for the benefit of the people. They will proclaim it is done on compassionate grounds. But how is compassion involved when one is forced to do something? Compassion becomes resentment on those that are forced to give and expectation and entitlement develops in those that receive benefit. Little or no love is involved on part of the contributor and little or no gratitude is in the breast of the person receiving benefit.

Works of charity or compassion are never truly done via the vehicle of government. There is a world of difference when one willing helps and either donates ones labor or fruits or ones labor then when one is told one must do so or else....

Odds are that we will see conditions  worsen for the majority of the people in not only in the US, but the EU as well, and other parts of the world will feel the impact, most in a negative way, in some aspects and some areas a positive way.

[Scottishmoney]

In no other period of history were so many worldly and noble men assembled as in the heady days of 1787-1788 whilst the USA constitution was being inscribed with the profound and forward missives which if interpreted in the way in which they were intended would see a nation now with far greater equality and opportunity for it's citizens.  Those men, many of whom held slaves, had children out of wedlock with involuntary servants, and looked down on other men in a manner which we would find now inconceivable were far more forward thinking of how societal changes would see equanimity in future generations than I can believe now possible - with the unfortunate lack of current intellect.

Unfortunately viewed from afar, I see thence that the Constitution is a perfect document, however the current interpretation has very little to do with intellectual or thoughts of equanimity but rather corporate greed and usurious profit for the elitist plutocrats that control the USA from behind the scenes.